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(erielack) Re: EL Mail List Digest V3 #2356

FWIW, as per a Paul Harvey "The Rest of the Story" the reason it's 4' 8 1/2" 
was simply because that's just a tad wider than the rearends of two horses 
standing side by side.   In other words, it was more the horse's anatomy 
that led to the dimension, than any conscious decision on any person's part.

Coincedentally, this would be a team of horses; so 4 foot 8 1/2" is 
literally a "team track" -

It seems reasonable that the earliest trains would be built to the gauge of 
the same cart tracks left by the Romans and still used by the people of the 
later time, both for ease in conversion of a road to rails, and to allow the 
use of standard carriages as cars.


And given the management actions of some railroads to this very day, it 
could probably be argued you'll still find at least a couple horse's 
rearends between the rails -



Bill K.


- ----- Original Message ----- 
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:05:22 -0400
> From: "Montgomery, Edward T" <Edward.Montgomery_@_fcps.edu>
> Subject: RE: (erielack) FW: Press Release, Caboose Acquired
>
> 1070s?  Well that was the time the Romans decided that the wheels of a
> chariot would be 4'81/2" apart.  The 1970s when 287 ended at Vreeland's
> Peach Orchard in Towaco.  It was late for me when I wrote the message.
>
> Ed Montgomery
>
>
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe K. [mailto:joesk_@_ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:02 AM
> To: EL Mail List
> Subject: RE: (erielack) FW: Press Release, Caboose Acquired
>
> At 10:25 PM 4/18/2007, Ed Montgomery wrote:
>>You get the feeling you're aging when you hear "Conrail Historical
>>Society" and an EL caboose that was built in the 1070s.  That doesn't
>>seem so long ago for me.  Time flies!
>>
>>Ed Montgomery
>>
>
> Ed,
>
> If you were really around in the 1070's, then you really are old!!!  ;-)
>
> Joe K.
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <FA9F775ABFB3224992A1DC631A0960D201385386_@_MB04.mail.fcps.edu>
> In-Reply-To: <004601c78267$3047c240$7a01a8c0_@_paul>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:10:01 -0400
> From: "Montgomery, Edward T" <Edward.Montgomery_@_fcps.edu>
> Subject: RE: (erielack) team tracks without platforms
>
> The Lackawanna had team tracks at the Mountain View Station that were
> removed long before I was probably born.  You can see freight cars on
> them in Tabor's Vol II book.  The long loading/unloading platform is
> still exists, covered up with debris and weeds.  It was on the east end
> of the station.  Apparently a lot of LCL was handled by the Lackawanna
> at Mountain View, probably before the depression.
>
> Ed Montgomery
>
>
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Brezicki [mailto:doctorpb_@_bellsouth.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 5:44 AM
> To: EL Mailing List
> Subject: Re: (erielack) team tracks without platforms
>
> Team tracks could also have end or side ramps for unloading farm and
> other equipment. Also in some cases they had overhead cranes. Erie's two
> "inland stations" had them; the one at 28th St was removed in the
> 1950's, while the less specialized 149th St terminal in the Bronx had a
> large gantry crane spanning 3 tracks; it remained in use until the
> terminal was closed in the late 60's. It also had an end ramp.
>
> Produce terminals in larger cities had one or more team tracks as well
> as one or more tracks at unloading platforms where produce was
> transferred to the auction building. Another more modern example is the
> track for unloading bulk commodities into trailers, either via a storage
> silo or more directly using a pneumatic cyclone-equipped device
> connected to the hopper car and bulk trailer via hoses. I don't recall
> EL getting into this but NYC and then PC had several such "Flexi-Flo"
> terminals. IIRC Todd posted photos of one in Syracuse.
>
> The team track is making a comeback as today's "distribution center",
> where a wide variety of commodities are unloaded for truck delivery. For
> small customers, this is often more efficient than using the customer's
> siding, and another example of RR's emphasis on "wholesale"
> transportation.
>
> Paul B
>
> From: "Chuck Yungkurth" <raildata_@_comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: (erielack) team tracks without platforms
>
> It seems to methat the function of "team tracks" is not very well
> understood by this forum.  Viturally every station had a siding or track
> for carload unloading. Freight houses were used primarily for
> warehousing LCL shipments.
>
> If a receiving industry got an entire carload of a commodity, it was
> spotted on a "team track" or siding for unloading by the company unless
> the company was large enough to have private sidings. The consignment
> was unloaded into trucks (formerly teams) and hauled to the revievers
> location.
>
> In Scranton the DL&W, D&H, CNJ, and Erie all had large areas of sidings
> with areas paved with cobblestones near them. The DL&W team tracks were
> laocted behind the building where the shopping mall is now. D&H had team
> trackage adjacent to it's passenger station on the lower end of
> Lackawanna Ave. At the same end of Lacakwanna Ave. was "the wholesale
> block" where there were many produce distibution companies. All of these
> unloaded fruit and other items from refrigerator cars. During the 40's
> and 50's there were usually around 10 to 15 refrigerator cars being
> unloaded at these team tracks.
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <FA9F775ABFB3224992A1DC631A0960D201385385_@_MB04.mail.fcps.edu>
> In-Reply-To: <002701c7828a$657f2e80$97eec741_@_DF8RFV31>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:07:00 -0400
> From: "Montgomery, Edward T" <Edward.Montgomery_@_fcps.edu>
> Subject: RE: (erielack) FW: Press Release, Caboose Acquired
>
> It was actually made for a line the Romans were building to take heavy
> freight traffic off of the Appian Way.
>
> Ed
>
>
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: david heckman [mailto:boots93_@_brinet.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:55 AM
> To: EL Mail List
> Subject: Re: (erielack) FW: Press Release, Caboose Acquired
>
> What year was that caboose built 1070? No way3294
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe K." <joesk_@_ix.netcom.com>
> To: "EL Mail List" <erielack_@_lists.elhts.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:02 AM
> Subject: RE: (erielack) FW: Press Release, Caboose Acquired
>
>
>> At 10:25 PM 4/18/2007, Ed Montgomery wrote:
>>>You get the feeling you're aging when you hear "Conrail Historical
>>>Society" and an EL caboose that was built in the 1070s.  That
>>>doesn't seem so long ago for me.  Time flies!
>>>
>>>Ed Montgomery
>>>
>>
>> Ed,
>>
>> If you were really around in the 1070's, then you really are old!!!
> ;-)
>>
>> Joe K.
>>
>>
>>
>> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
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>>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <FA9F775ABFB3224992A1DC631A0960D201385387_@_MB04.mail.fcps.edu>
> In-Reply-To: <d14.8add519.3358365f_@_aol.com>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:11:21 -0400
> From: "Montgomery, Edward T" <Edward.Montgomery_@_fcps.edu>
> Subject: RE: (erielack) DL&W Broad Street, Newark
>
> If I recall, the Lincoln Hotel was originally built as a Holiday Inn in
> the early 1960s.  I remember reading about it in the Newark News at the
> time.
>
> Ed Montgomery
>
>
>
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: ShepRail_@_aol.com [mailto:ShepRail@aol.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:05 PM
> To: erielack_@_lists.elhts.org
> Subject: Re: (erielack) DL&W Broad Street, Newark
>
> In my time, the Lower Level of the DL&W Passaic River Bridge in Newark
> was used only by freight trains from Harrison Yard to serve the team
> track/freight house on Broad Street. This was one of two double-deck
> railroad drawbridges in Newark (the other being the H& M/PRR drawbridge
> downstream) when the station at Park Place was active.
>
> Yes, I recall the Lincoln Hotel was built on the site of the DL&W
> freight house and team tracks.
>
>
>
>
> **************************************
> See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
>
>
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> ------------------------------
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>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <002f01c78298$163ffa80$6a00a8c0_@_PAULPC>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:33:31 -0400
> From: "Paul R. Tupaczewski" <paultup_@_comcast.net>
> Subject: (erielack) DL&W 4 track / 2 track
>
> Hi folks,
>
> Here's a thought I had that was spurred by the four-track "telltale pole"
> discussion from earlier today:
>
> The DL&W Boonton Line had four tracks between Denville and Lincoln Park, 
> and
> then two tracks from LP east to Secaucus. My question is: WHY? Would that
> have made Lincoln Park a big bottleneck on this, the DL&W's primary 
> freight
> route? Was there a lot of local traffic between Denville and Lincoln Park
> that would have warranted the extra tracks? Or perhaps larger grades,
> requiring extra tracks for hotshots to bypass slower drags?
>
> Just wondering,
>
> - Paul
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <669144.7735.qm_@_web54309.mail.yahoo.com>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:41:38 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Edward Mines <ed_mines_@_yahoo.com>
> Subject: (erielack) yellow diamonds
>
> If you look at the Culotta Kline freight car book recently offered by the 
> NMRA you will find several recently painted Erie freight cars where the 
> diamond looks slightly darker than the lettering. I assume that these 
> diamonds were the yellow color.
>
>  When I first became interested in Erie freight cars I corresponded with 
> Larry DeYoung and asked him about these yellow diamonds. The 2 big decal 
> suppliers at the time - Champion & Walthers - had yellow diamonds in some 
> of their freight sets. Larry was noncommittal. I would write "look at this 
> picture or that picture in Erie Power. It looks like the diamond is a 
> slightly darker color".
>
>  It was a revelation when a freight car historian found builders documents 
> which stated that an entire lot of new cars were painted with yellow 
> diamonds near the end of WWII. Then a picture of an older car with a 
> yellow diamond showed up in one of the all color steam books from another 
> railroad.
>
>  I agree that the yellow diamonds necessitated a paint shop stocking an 
> additional color of paint so maybe only some of cars repainted just after 
> WWII received yellow diamonds.
>
>  About 1947 Erie started using the very large diamonds (almost twice the 
> height of the older diamonds). I have a B&W photo of a line of cars 
> waiting for repair where one hopper had a large diamond and another car 
> has a smaller, darker diamond.
>
>  I'm interested in Erie freight cars just after WWII. I think that there 
> were 4 different varieties of diamonds on cars in service at that time - 
> an older, slightly smaller version of a white diamond on a black 
> background, the most common small white diamond on a black background, the 
> same diamond without the black background (starting about 1940) and 
> finally the yellow diamond (same stencil as the proceeding 2) on a black 
> background.
>
>  I hear the aforementioned Culotta Cline book is almost sold out. It has 
> more than a few Erie freight cars.
>
>  Ed Mines
>
>
> - ---------------------------------
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
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> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <06e401c7829e$1f7b33c0$aa02a8c0_@_DukesPC>
> References: <200704190933.l3J9X15l016214_@_net.bluemoon.net> 
> <6.0.1.1.2.20070419091942.030c92d0_@_filter.ncweb.com>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:16:44 -0400
> From: "R. Dukarm" <rdukarm_@_adelphia.net>
> Subject: Re: (erielack) Buffalo 1900
>
> Dale,
>
> The East Buffalo Yard article is in Vol. 18 Number 1 & Vol. 18 Number 2:
>
> You can also access the Diamond Index at
> http://www.erielackhs.com/ELHS/ELHSInPrint.html
>
> In addition, you can find more views of East Buualo at this site.
>
> Additional Buffalo depots can be viewed in the "Next Station Will Be" 
> series
> and at the Syracuse University Site.
> http://library.syr.edu/digital/images/e/ErieRailroad/
>
> Ron Dukarm
>
>
> - ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dale Madison" <gobills_@_ncweb.com>
> To: <erielack_@_lists.elhts.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:23 AM
> Subject: (erielack) Buffalo 1900
>
>
>> At 05:33 19.04.2007, you wrote:
>>>Up to about 1900, when electric trolleys spread throughout Buffalo, the
>>>Erie maintained a commuter service on its Black Rock Branch. The stations
>>>you list were all commuter stations. When the commuter service was
>>>discontinued, the Walden, Delevan, International Jct and Colvin stations
>>>were closed and eventually demolished. The others had team tracks and 
>>>were
>>>operated as freighthouses, except Main Street, which was used by the
>>>International Railway Company (IRC) for trolley commuter service to
>>>Niagara Falls and Lockport.
>>>
>>>I have never seen photos of Colvin or International Junction. If anyone
>>>has these, I would sure appreciate a copy.
>>>
>>>One station you are missing is East Buffalo, located in the Erie's East
>>>Buffalo Yard. There is a photo of it in my East Buffalo Yard article in
>>>the Diamond. East Buffalo was retained into the 50's as it was on the 
>>>Main
>>>Line, at the junction where the Black Rock/Niagara Falls line headed
>>>north.
>>
>>
>> Thanks Ron and John for your information.  Given maps are not always up 
>> to
>> date with respect to railroad names and railroad features, looking at 
>> city
>> street development, I'm going to presume it's a 1900 -1910 map.
>>
>> Ron, what issue of the Diamond was your article in?
>>
>> And you allude to having seen pictures of many of the stations, save
>> Colvin and International Junction.  Were they ever pictured in the
>> Diamond?  Or on the web?
>>
>> Many thanks again.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <BAY115-F18A53D26B3BBB79F23BDBF8F570_@_phx.gbl>
> In-Reply-To: <0JGQ003LQSLTMNS0_@_mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:31:33 -0400
> From: "Fred Stratton" <erief7_@_msn.com>
> Subject: RE: (erielack) "What is this?"
>
> Tell Tale warning pole may be it. Paul, check over by the old D,L & W Mt. 
> View station site. There used to be one on the east side of the Parish 
> Drive bridge. The mount may still be there.
>
>
>
>
> Fred Stratton
> MP. 7.2 Norfolk Southern Asheville Line
> Salisbury, NC  704-642-0680
> Son of David Stratton
> Former Erie/Erie Lackawanna Employee
> New York Division
> 1937-1974
>
>
>
> From: Rich O <rev66_@_optonline.net>
> Reply-To: "EL Mail List" <erielack_@_lists.elhts.org>
> To: erielack_@_lists.railfan.net
> Subject: (erielack) "What is this?"
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:15:41 -0500
>> It's kind of hard to actually determine the distance between this
>>and the bridge, but could it be the base for a "tell-tale" warning
>>pole?
>>
>> Just a guess.
>>
>> Rich Onorevole
>>
>>
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>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <BAY114-W16273C1C41F1BBDCCA41E0DA570_@_phx.gbl>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:51:59 +0000
> From: Walt Fles <eriewalt_@_hotmail.com>
> Subject: (erielack) Location of photo in hammond, IN
>
> All,
> Does anyone know of the location of this picture taken in hammond, IN, 
> submitted by larry 
> berger?http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/loco/el3306blb.jpg
>
> Thanks in advance!
> _________________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1070419135908.47562g-100000_@_net.bluemoon.net>
> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20070419091942.030c92d0_@_filter.ncweb.com>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:01:45 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "J. Henry Priebe Jr." <root_@_bluemoon.net>
> Subject: Re: (erielack) Buffalo 1900
>
> On Thu, 19 Apr 2007, Dale Madison wrote:
>
>> And you allude to having seen pictures of many of the stations, save 
>> Colvin
>> and International Junction.  Were they ever pictured in the Diamond?  Or 
>> on
>> the web?
>>
>> Many thanks again.
>>
>> Dale
>
> Dale,
>
> Go to http://memory.loc.gov/ and in the upper right hand corner Search box 
> put
> in "Buffalo Erie Railway Station" without the quote marks and click Search 
> and
> the first four hits should be links to:
>
> 1. Erie Railway, East Buffalo Station, Buffalo, Erie County, NY Built in
> America
> 2. Erie Railway, Walden Avenue Station, Walden Avenue, Buffalo, Erie 
> County,
> NY Built in America
> 3. Erie Railway, Main Street Station, Main Street, Buffalo, Erie County, 
> NY
> Built in America
> 4. Erie Railway, Kensington Avenue Station, Kensington Avenue, Buffalo, 
> Erie
> County, NY Built in America
>
> The Syracuse University Erie Railroad Glass Plate negative collection also 
> has
> plates of those four Buffalo stations online as well as many other Buffalo
> area depots. Go to
> http://library.syr.edu/information/spcollections/digital/erierr/ and put
> BUFFALO in the "Keyword Anywhere" search box. It comes up with 81 hits so 
> you
> have to go through several pages of results.
>
> I have never seen photos of Colvin or International Jct stations either. I
> don't even have them on any of my Sanborn maps. In addition to the
> Colvin/Villa Park  station, an 1887 map of Buffalo shows stations at 
> Delaware
> Ave, Delavan Ave and Genessee St. It also shows "International Junc." but 
> not
> as a station stop. My 1894 Buffalo Atlas shows Colvin Station, but not
> Delaware and International Jct is once again marked, but not as a station.
> Main St, Kensington, [East] Delavan and Walden are shown, but nothing for
> Genesee St. On all my pre-1900 maps I don't even see a street anywhere 
> near
> the tracks on the Erie side of International Jct and I haven't seen any
> evidence that there was in fact a real station there. It's less than a 
> half
> mile away from Main St Station so it's not like a station was needed that
> badly at that location.
>
> So, exactly how many stations did the Erie have between East Buffalo and 
> Black
> Rock at one time and when did each disappear? I count the following from
> various maps:
>
> Delaware Ave
> Colvin
> International Jct (was this in fact a real Erie station with a building?)
> Main St
> Kensington Ave
> East Delavan Ave
> Walden Ave
> Genesee St
>
> The pre-1900 maps also label the Black Rock branch as "West Shore RR" in
> addition to "New York, Lake Erie & Western" from "East Buffalo Jc" (West
> Shore crossing just south [TT E?] of Walden) to Black Rock. I have never 
> read
> anything about the West having ownership of or using trackage rights over 
> the
> Erie to Black Rock, but it would have been a fairly short lived 
> arrangement.
> Didn't WS parent PRR use the DL&W to get to Black Rock, at least in later
> years? Lots of questions revolving around the Black Rock branch in the 
> 19th
> century...
>
> Interestingly, the somewhat parallel NYC's Belt Line passenger service 
> lasted
> to around 1920.
>
> Henry
>
> J. Henry Priebe Jr.    Blue Moon Internet Corp Network Administrator
> www.bluemoon.net       Internet Access & Web Hosting
> www.railfan.net        Railfan Network Services
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <id.19042007163257.00000_@_FPE>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 16:32:57 EDT
> From: "Janet & Randy Brown" <jananran_@_mymailstation.com>
> Subject: Re:(erielack) Erie solarium cars
>
> The Pullman built and operated restaurant cars for several railroads in 
> the early 1930s, to supplement or, more often, completly replace 
> railroad-run dining car services.  Railway Mechanical Engineer for 
> February 4, 1933, told of Pullman operating 64 cars over 29 lines on 19 
> railroads, most in the 8-section/dining/lounge configuration.  They 
> differed from other Pullmans with lounge or buffet service in that they 
> offered complete meal service, in many cases the only such service on the 
> railroad and, therefore, available to all passengers.
>
> The Erie carried eleven cars, nine between Jersey City and Chicago and two 
> between Jersey City and Buffalo. The only "custom" aspect to the operation 
> was the assignment to the cars of names which held local interest.
>
> By December, 1933, the Erie's assignment was nine cars with Chicago and/or 
> Jersey City as end points and involving Hornell, Youngstown and Cleveland 
> for shorter runs.  The Route of the Erie Limited (Dirkes & Krause, 
> Carstens 1986) shows Spring Brook Club in 1937. It is uncertain how many 
> lasted that long and when they wereall withdrawn because, even before 
> their creation, the Erie already owned nine full-sized Pullman-built (but 
> railroad run) diners.
>
> Randy Brown
> - --------------------------------------------------------------
> Returning to a thread from a few weeks ago, I found more information on 
> these cars in The Official Pullman-Standard Library - Selected Heavyweight 
> Cars (RFC publications Inc, 1995). . .
>
> The fact that these were custom rebuilds. . .. It sounds like these Erie 
> cars were rather unique rebuilds, so I don't think the accurate 
> combination of side and ends is going to appear in any model.
>
>
> Joe Braun
>
>
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> http://www.elhts.org
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>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <0JGR007Z7IXOEGA0_@_mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 16:44:25 -0500
> From: Rich O <rev66_@_optonline.net>
> Subject: (erielack) Railroad gauge
>
>   Actually Snopes and truth or fiction.com indicate that the theory
> that US railroad gauge came form the width of Roman chariot tracks is
> fiction in itself. They state that the current standard evolved from
> England and attribute it to George Stephenson.
>
> Regards:
>
> Rich Onorevole
>
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
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>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <001201c782c6$b360f5c0$6400a8c0_@_NEWDELL>
> References: <0JGR007Z7IXOEGA0_@_mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
> In-Reply-To: <0JGR007Z7IXOEGA0_@_mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:07:12 -0400
> From: "Peter Heimbach" <plh5_@_charter.net>
> Subject: RE: (erielack) Railroad gauge
>
> A further search beyond Mr. Stephenson would show that the British roadway
> ruts from the roman occupation were the basis of early tram rails gage. 
> The
> answer depends on how far back in history do you search.  Therefore, it is
> not fiction, just not a complete search for the information.
>
> Pete
>
>
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich O [mailto:rev66_@_optonline.net]
> Sent: Thursday, 19 April, 2007 5:44 PM
> To: erielack_@_lists.railfan.net
> Subject: (erielack) Railroad gauge
>
>   Actually Snopes and truth or fiction.com indicate that the theory
> that US railroad gauge came form the width of Roman chariot tracks is
> fiction in itself. They state that the current standard evolved from
> England and attribute it to George Stephenson.
>
> Regards:
>
> Rich Onorevole
>
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
> To Unsubscribe: http://lists.elhts.org/erielackunsub.html
>
>
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
> To Unsubscribe: http://lists.elhts.org/erielackunsub.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <4627DE52.1040105_@_verizon.net>
> References: <0JGR007Z7IXOEGA0_@_mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> 
> <001201c782c6$b360f5c0$6400a8c0_@_NEWDELL>
> In-Reply-To: <001201c782c6$b360f5c0$6400a8c0_@_NEWDELL>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:25:38 -0400
> From: bob gillis <robertgillis_@_verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: (erielack) Railroad gauge
>
> Peter Heimbach wrote:
>> A further search beyond Mr. Stephenson would show that the British 
>> roadway
>> ruts from the roman occupation were the basis of early tram rails gage. 
>> The
>> answer depends on how far back in history do you search.  Therefore, it 
>> is
>> not fiction, just not a complete search for the information.
>
> Another version of the gauge is that the original British colliery rails
> were a |__        __|.  ordinary cart or wagon wheels ran in the gauge.
>
> the distance between the vertical guides was 5 feet.  When flanges were
> put on the inside of wheels the wheel gauge remained at 5' and the rail
> gauge reduced to 4'-8-1/2"
>
> bob gillis
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
> To Unsubscribe: http://lists.elhts.org/erielackunsub.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <00dc01c782ca$631ce070$a28422a6_@_mcilink.com>
> In-Reply-To: <001201c782c6$b360f5c0$6400a8c0_@_NEWDELL>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:33:35 -0600
> From: Frank P Adams <frank.p.adams_@_verizonbusiness.com>
> Subject: RE: (erielack) Railroad gauge
>
> I've personally seen the ruts in Pompeii, also they have stepping stones 
> (at
> intersections, like cross walks) with spaces between them for the wheels.
> If they're not 4" 8 1/2" apart, they're close.
>
> Frank
>
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Heimbach [mailto:plh5_@_charter.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 3:07 PM
> To: 'EL Mail List'
> Subject: RE: (erielack) Railroad gauge
>
>
> A further search beyond Mr. Stephenson would show that the British roadway
> ruts from the roman occupation were the basis of early tram rails gage. 
> The
> answer depends on how far back in history do you search.  Therefore, it is
> not fiction, just not a complete search for the information.
>
> Pete
>
>
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich O [mailto:rev66_@_optonline.net]
> Sent: Thursday, 19 April, 2007 5:44 PM
> To: erielack_@_lists.railfan.net
> Subject: (erielack) Railroad gauge
>
>   Actually Snopes and truth or fiction.com indicate that the theory that 
> US
> railroad gauge came form the width of Roman chariot tracks is fiction in
> itself. They state that the current standard evolved from England and
> attribute it to George Stephenson.
>
> Regards:
>
> Rich Onorevole
>
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
> To Unsubscribe: http://lists.elhts.org/erielackunsub.html
>
>
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
> To Unsubscribe: http://lists.elhts.org/erielackunsub.html
>
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
> To Unsubscribe: http://lists.elhts.org/erielackunsub.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <E1HeeKN-0007HN-C8_@_elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> References: <0JGR007Z7IXOEGA0_@_mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> 
> <001201c782c6$b360f5c0$6400a8c0_@_NEWDELL> <4627DE52.1040105@verizon.net>
> In-Reply-To: <4627DE52.1040105_@_verizon.net>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:38:58 -0400
> From: "Joe K." <joesk_@_ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: (erielack) Railroad gauge
>
> At 05:25 PM 4/19/2007, Bob gillis wrote:
>>Peter Heimbach wrote:
>>>A further search beyond Mr. Stephenson would show that the British 
>>>roadway
>>>ruts from the roman occupation were the basis of early tram rails gage. 
>>>The
>>>answer depends on how far back in history do you search.  Therefore, it 
>>>is
>>>not fiction, just not a complete search for the information.
>>
>>Another version of the gauge is that the original British colliery
>>rails were a |__        __|.  ordinary cart or wagon wheels ran in the 
>>gauge.
>>
>>the distance between the vertical guides was 5 feet.  When flanges
>>were put on the inside of wheels the wheel gauge remained at 5' and
>>the rail gauge reduced to 4'-8-1/2"
>>
>>bob gillis
>
> Why don't we settle it by asking Ed Montgomery? He was around in 1070
> and should know!  ;-)
> (Sorry Ed!)  ;-)
>
> Joe K.
>
>
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
> To Unsubscribe: http://lists.elhts.org/erielackunsub.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <0JGR00174LTKUFD0_@_mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:46:45 -0500
> From: Rich O <rev66_@_optonline.net>
> Subject: (erielack) Railroad gauge
>
>   They state on these sites that Tram gauges were not uniform
> either. Don't know how far anyone can take it, but that's what THEY say!
>
>   Interesting!! Maybe we can create our own "footnote" in history!
>
> Rich Onorevole
>
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
> To Unsubscribe: http://lists.elhts.org/erielackunsub.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <001901c782d2$bbdbdd80$6400a8c0_@_NEWDELL>
> References: <0JGR007Z7IXOEGA0_@_mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> 
> <001201c782c6$b360f5c0$6400a8c0_@_NEWDELL> <4627DE52.1040105@verizon.net> 
> <E1HeeKN-0007HN-C8_@_elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> In-Reply-To: <E1HeeKN-0007HN-C8_@_elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:33:20 -0400
> From: "Peter Heimbach" <plh5_@_charter.net>
> Subject: RE: (erielack) Railroad gauge
>
> No that won't work, the gage was set about 107 AD not 1070, but that
> information would be closer to the truth.
>
> Pete
>
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe K. [mailto:joesk_@_ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 19 April, 2007 5:39 PM
> To: EL Mail List
> Subject: Re: (erielack) Railroad gauge
>
> At 05:25 PM 4/19/2007, Bob gillis wrote:
>>Peter Heimbach wrote:
>>>A further search beyond Mr. Stephenson would show that the British 
>>>roadway
>>>ruts from the roman occupation were the basis of early tram rails gage.
> The
>>>answer depends on how far back in history do you search.  Therefore, it 
>>>is
>>>not fiction, just not a complete search for the information.
>>
>>Another version of the gauge is that the original British colliery
>>rails were a |__        __|.  ordinary cart or wagon wheels ran in the
> gauge.
>>
>>the distance between the vertical guides was 5 feet.  When flanges
>>were put on the inside of wheels the wheel gauge remained at 5' and
>>the rail gauge reduced to 4'-8-1/2"
>>
>>bob gillis
>
> Why don't we settle it by asking Ed Montgomery? He was around in 1070
> and should know!  ;-)
> (Sorry Ed!)  ;-)
>
> Joe K.
>
>
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
> To Unsubscribe: http://lists.elhts.org/erielackunsub.html
>
>
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
> To Unsubscribe: http://lists.elhts.org/erielackunsub.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <d3b.740d501.33594aaa_@_aol.com>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:43:54 EDT
> From: Dlw1el2_@_aol.com
> Subject: Re: (erielack) DL&W 4 track / 2 track
>
> In a message dated 4/19/2007 11:35:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> paultup_@_comcast.net writes:
>
> The  DL&W Boonton Line had four tracks between Denville and Lincoln Park, 
> and
> then two tracks from LP east to Secaucus
> Paul
> No,  East to Paterson Jct.   There was only a nine mile  section of double
> track, on mostly level ground.
>
> . My question is: WHY? Would that
> have made Lincoln Park a big  bottleneck on this, the DL&W's primary 
> freight
> route? Was there a lot of  local traffic between Denville and Lincoln Park
> that would have warranted the  extra tracks? Or perhaps larger grades,
> requiring extra tracks for hotshots  to bypass slower drags?
>
> Yes,  it was all up hill from Lincoln Park except for the short  stretch 
> of
> level track through Boonton.
> The fourth track disappeared west of Lincoln Park between 1939 and 1943 if
> that means anything .
>
>
> Bob Bahrs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's free at 
> http://www.aol.com.
>
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
> To Unsubscribe: http://lists.elhts.org/erielackunsub.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <008801c782fc$4b428a90$6a00a8c0_@_PAULPC>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:30:50 -0400
> From: "Paul R. Tupaczewski" <paultup_@_comcast.net>
> Subject: (erielack) Work on Erie 833 restoration commences...
>
> Thanks to Tim Stuy for pointing out this site to me:
>
>
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=21659#
>
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
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>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <464287.11584.qm_@_web43146.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> In-Reply-To: <008801c782fc$4b428a90$6a00a8c0_@_PAULPC>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:04:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Rob Piecuch <lmprjp88_@_yahoo.com>
> Subject: (erielack) Another Phoebe Snow coach found
>
> Found this information just recently.
>
>  Great Smoky Mountains Railroad coach # 37 Nantahala - (ex-EL, nee-DL&W) 
> LW open-air coach rblt. from a coach.  This car previously has seen 
> service on both the Maryland Midland's EnterTRAINment train and the 
> Chessie System Steam and Safety Specials.  (History???)
>
>  I knew this one was around somewhere, not sure the car #... Wonder how 
> much modification was done to it?
>
>  Rob Piecuch
>
>
> - ---------------------------------
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
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>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>>From Archives_@_Railfan.net
> Message-ID: <209793.95756.qm_@_web43145.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> In-Reply-To: <008801c782fc$4b428a90$6a00a8c0_@_PAULPC>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:06:00 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Rob Piecuch <lmprjp88_@_yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: (erielack) Work on Erie 833 restoration commences...
>
> OK, silly question, is 833 going to lettered "Erie" or "NY&GL"?
>
>  Rob P
>
>
> "Paul R. Tupaczewski" <paultup_@_comcast.net> wrote:
>  Thanks to Tim Stuy for pointing out this site to me:
>
>
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=21659#
>
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
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>
>
>
> - ---------------------------------
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
> The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> Sponsored by the ELH&TS
> http://www.elhts.org
> To Unsubscribe: http://lists.elhts.org/erielackunsub.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of EL Mail List Digest V3 #2356
> ***********************************
>
>
> -- 
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> 5:56 PM
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> 


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