Re: Fw: (rshsdepot) Buffalo, NY

["J. Henry Priebe Jr." <root_@_net.bluemoon.net>]

That would make sense at some point in time as PRR controlled the LV, but I
can't contribute date to the equation other than that arrangement would have
ended prior to 1955 when the LV sold their downtown line to the Scott St
terminal to New York State and the terminal was razed to make way for the NYS
office building. After 1955 the PRR definitely used Central Terminal. 

That said, I have seen many photos of PRR K4s on passenger trains at Central
Terminal which leads me to believe that their usage of Central Terminal may
have pre-dated 1955 by some years.

I have spent a lot of time studying old maps and aerial photos of the Buffalo
area and I just don't know how PRR trains to and from Harrisburg could have
gotten to the LV's terminal in downtown Buffalo which was reached by an
elevated right of way after the grade separation projects of the mid-teens.

LV entered the Buffalo area on a right of way which paralleled the DL&W's City
Branch from Ogden St near the city line to DM Tower at Seneca & Bailey where
the LV swung overhead of the DL&W and PRR's at grade crossing. To the best of
my knowledge there was never any ramp from the PRR to the LV at this location
in the westbound direction in post grade separation days. There was an
_eastbound_ connection which led to LV's east Buffalo yards, but this would
have required an over two mile long backup move to reach LV's terminal. From
the PRR-DL&W crossing at DM the LV ran above grade over streets and railroad
trackage all the way to the terminal.

The PRR from Harrisburg continued west from DM tower through FW tower and
crossed the Central's main line at Tower 49 which later became tower 49A near
North Division and Emslie Sts. Fron there the Pennsy ran alongside the Central
into downtown. For the PRR to get to LV's terminal that way they would have
had to cross a myriad of NYC and Erie trackage which served both passenger and
freight facilities in downtown Buffalo. I don't think that route was very
practical, but it may have been possible.

Just west of FW Tower the Erie did have a connection ramp with the LV
passenger main, but I don't see any direct westbound connection from the PRR's
Babcock St yard area to the Erie's line to downtown and the LV interchange. It
could have been accomplished via a lengthly backup move and some disruptive
routing by the FW operator.

PRR trains from Pittsburgh to Buffalo took an entirely different route into
town. That single track line and the Nickel Plate's Chicago main were
combined and shared by the two roads as double track from Brocton into South
Buffalo. Trains from this direction could have made it to LV's downtown
terminal via a circuitous route from Blasdell via LV's freight main.

The LV's freght main to the Tifft St yards did cross the PRR's Harrisburg
main a couple miles east of DM Tower, but it was overhead and I have never
seen any evidence of a connection at that location in either maps or aerials.

I'm absolutely baffled as to how PRR would have routed HBG trains to LV's
Scott St terminal or what years they might have used that facility. I'm not
saying I don't believe they did, just that I can't figure out how unless they
backed in from all the way out past DM in southeast Buffalo.

I guess I need to find an old-timer to explain it!

I have seen Grand Trunk mentioned as an LV tenant once, but I haven't been
able to verify it. That routing would have been via Niagara Falls which the LV
accessed from their branch off the mainline at Niagara Junction to their
trackage rights over the NYC from Tonawanda to Niagara Falls where they had a
good sized yard for many years. That was the route of the "Maple Leaf" of
course.

Henry

On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, tonydawson1 Dawson wrote:

> The PRR used the LV station in Buffalo.
> 
> When I was a young boy in the fifties, my family took the Pennsy from Wash
> DC to Buffalo. My only recollection of the trip is walking down steps or a
> ramp to get to the main station. Later as a railroad employee in Buffalo, I
> became familiar with Central Terminal and could not reconcile the Central
> Terminal layout with my recollection. I finally saw a picture of the
> interior of the LV station which confirmed my recollection.
> 
> Tony Dawson
J. Henry Priebe Jr.    Blue Moon Internet Corp Network Administrator
www.bluemoon.net       Internet Access & Web Hosting
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