Re: (rshsdepot) Buffalo, NY

["J. Henry Priebe Jr." <root_@_net.bluemoon.net>]

On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Seth Bramson wrote:

>  >>>WONDERFUL information, Henry, and thank you.
> I do, however, have a question:  are you sure about the Lackawanna--M. 
> C. arrangment.  My recollection was that DL&W owned a substantial piece 
> of the NKP and I distinctly recall the timetables of both roads--back in 
> to the 30's--touting through trains and later through cars NY City 
> (ferry) HOB DL&W BUFF NKP Cleve and Chi.  
> 
> Can you comment on that when you have a moment?

Yes, the DL&W/NKP cooperation was better known than the MC arrangement via
Detroit. The NKP through car arrangement is so ingrained in my mind I almost
think of it as a DL&W train to Chicago. I should have mentioned it, oops.

As I recall, the DL&W owned something on the order of 20% of the NKP stock
into the 1950's when it was sold off. Shortly after completion "The Great
Nickel Plated Road" fell under the control of the Vanderbilts in order to
perpetuate their lake shore route monopoly. In a continuation of Teddy
Roosevelt's war on monopolies the ICC ordered the NYC to divest itself of the
NKP which is how the NKP was aquired by Cleveland's Van Sweringan brothers who
wanted use of the NKP right of way in Cleveland for their Shaker Heights
interurban line which is still in use by the RTA. The Vans proceeded to
assemble a RR empire which included the NKP, Erie, C&O and PM. They ramrodded
the syndicate which eventually built Cleveland Union Terminal which was
largely financed by the Central! Their C&O control is also why the for years
the C&O was headquartered in Cleveland to which the C&O ran nowhere near. The
C&O's physical distance from its headquarters city was also the reason why it
was an early owner of private business aircraft! I know, I'm rambling again...

The Erie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Society, http://ELDCPS.org (I'm a
member), recently obtained an ex NKP 10&6 sleeper 211 "City of Lima" through 
donation by a private individual. This car was used in DL&W and later EL
through service to Chicago. Along with diner 741 and several cars owned by
ELDCPS members the goal of recreating an EL long distance passenger train is
fast becoming a reality. It's called "The Lake Cities Project" and worth a
look for DL&W/EL and NYC-Chicago passenger service fans. This train WILL RUN
again!

I have to dig out my source for the MC connection later when I have time. I
was surprised to find out about it three or four years ago.

> (Also, didn't the NYO&W and the Wabash have a through arrangement, also, 
> with partial operation over the NYC between Oswego (I think) and Buffalo 
> in the early years of the century?  To the best of our knowledge, the 
> Old & Weary never operated dining cars but it did participate in through 
> Pullman operation from Weehawken (West Shore Terminal) to Chicago.)

I have always been interested in the Old & Weary even though it was history
before I was born. I have to claim ignorance on their through car operations
for "western" destinations as I haven't ever researched it! My father was my
source for O&W info and sadly that "reference library" has been closed to me
for the past 6 years :(  The West Shore was a research project Dad was very
interested in. He had an unrealized ambition to write a book on West Shore and
I always keep an eye out for NYWS&B material, but there isn't much on the web
anywhere. I don't have more than a thumbnail history of it and some old maps
showing trackage in the Buffalo area.

I'll certainly keep an eye out for NYO&W/NYWS&B through sleeper info from now
on.

Interestingly, the west end of NYWS&B line at Buffalo was smack dab on top of
the eventual Buffalo Central Terminal site. The West Shore's East Buffalo yard
was just north of the NYC&HRR East Buffalo yard and the two were eventually
consolidated into one facility which was rebuilt into Frontier Yard in the
1950's and is operated by CSX as their main Buffalo area facility today. The
West Shore's line to the downtown area continued west from the yard to the
NYC&HRR Buffalo Belt Line (CP SYCAMORE today) where it turned southwest and
made a bee line right across the Central Terminal site to near what is called
CP 437 today. There it interchanged with the Buffalo Creek terminal line and
joined up with the NYC&HRR and WNY&P (PRR) right of way into downtown, about
2 miles down the line. 

After Central Terminal was built the West Shore connection provided access
from there to the engine facilities on the NYS&W side of the East Buffalo yard
and the West Shore's (third one I believe) roundhouse.

The old West Shore trackage from Frontier to the Belt is still heavily used
with three tracks in place.

Henry     

J. Henry Priebe Jr.    Blue Moon Internet Corp Network Administrator
www.bluemoon.net       Internet Access & Web Hosting
www.railfan.net        Railfan Network Services

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