Re: (rshsdepot) CNJ/LV/DL&W v. PRR???

["James R. Guthrie" <jguthrie_@_pipeline.com>]

rshsdepot
Paul wrote:

> Jim writes:
> Recall that Hudson County/Jersey City were already beginning to
> finance the entire operation of the city from railroad property
taxes
> by then, and the PRR (with the huge expense of the PT&T) did not
have
> the wherewithal of the Anthracite Roads (CNJ/LV/DL&W) to =
> subsidize
>
> Hmmm, where does the Erie fit in?
>
The Erie was saddled with lots of debt -- plus a larger physical plant
that included a line all the way to Chicago that the LV/DL&W/CNJ did
not have. Even with the NYS&W and the Pennsylvania Coal Co. thrown in,
they were relatively small potatoes  in bringing anthracite profit to
the bottom line.

> I am wondering-Were the Lehigh Valley and the Lackawanna, let alone
CNJ. =
> richer than the Pennsy in early 20th century??? That is puzzling.
PRR =
> built two separate (actually more than 2) tunnels under two Rivers
into =
> Manhattan, a very very very large and quite elaborate palace (I mean
=
> Station) in Manhattan, would grade separate much of the LIRR in the
two =
> boroughs, electrify much of the PRR and most of the LIRR, among
quite a =
> lot of other stuff- building their own long lasting engines, power =
> plants....
>
The CNJ/LV/DL&W had much larger profitible coal operations; the PRR
had a smaller one and a lot of other investment. Of course, the PRR
was "richer" -- but when it came to free cash flow, the conentrated
anthracite roads did far better. All declared far more generous
dividends than the PRR, for instance. All three roads posted a much
better return on investment for stockholders than the PRR -- save for
periods of financial shenanigans such as the 1890s and -- of course --
after anthracite started to go bust in the 1920s.
>
> Plus it seems the Pennsylvania RRs went through similar anthracite =
> country, though if that wasn't true, I still don't know if it =
> matters..they seem the richer by far. They could afford to escape
the =
> taxes of Jersey City and I bet paid far more for all that real
estate in =
> Manhattan; this was after all before our age where municipalities
give =
> everything away with humongous tax breaks (though I guess that is
not to =
> railroads!!)

Jersey City gave no tax breaks. And when the CNJ, NYS&W, Erie etc. all
went into bankruptcy, the NJ tax case was the biggest creditor
situtation they all faced. And they had to pay up -- mostly -- as
well.
>
> Also they didn't give up the property, even still using the station
for =
> a few decades more.
>
By the late 1950s, the tax situation had somewhat abated.

> And this property is worth the taxes. Have you seen what they are =
> building at these sites now???
>
Well, compared to what the railroads were paying, the current taxation
is a mere drop in the bucket (not even counting the tax abatements to
lure new construction).

I ride the PATH to work (WTC-JSQ) and then on to South Kearny to work
most days (I'm not far from the old CNJ Station at the former Western
Electric plant); I sometimes board the #1 bus at Exchange Place and
when the weather is good, even ride the ferry. Until last June, I
maintained an office in the old DL&W Freight terminal in Jersey
City -- which was probably the biggest terminal -- freight or
passenger -- in NY -- in terms of square footage. I'm not sure, but
with eight floors a block deep and two blocks long, I'd guess it was
larger than even NYP or GCT.

In short, I see the area most every day.

> [In Weehawken there are apt buildings in a row on the old pier, but
=
> that's another story]
>
The ex- NYS&W-served Ford pier at Edgewater is a good example.

Cheers,
Jim

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