Re: (rshsdepot) Jim Guthrie's comments

["James R. Guthrie" <jguthrie_@_pipeline.com>]

rshsdepot
Paul wrote (and in response to Seth):

> What I am trying to babble out is that the NY Elevated RR and the
> Metropolitan Elevated RR thought of themselves as true RRs, they
even had
> steam engines for a few decades. I think this is one reason
sometimes you
> see them have plans and maps to expand to NJ and
upstate....obviously they
> were not interstate, but I have no problems seeing them selling
interline

I just pulled down a January 1910 Official Guide off the shelf --
right there on page 210 is the Putnam schedule with departures listed
-From Rector Street and Barclay Street.

> tickets at all, since at first they did use tickets, why not- they
had
> connections with the NY and Hudson at that old station near 30th
Street,
> with the NY and Northern at 155th, at Grand Central via a spur on
42nd St.
> (only the NY&Northern was on same platforms/tracks). They also had
stations
> near virtually every RR's ticket office (such as Erie and B&O)
around
> Manhattan, with exceptions such as the W 23rd St. Ferries...At first
they
> even carried freight. (At least I recall reading that), and didn't
someone
> even mention RPO early on?
>
I don't know about RPOs, but apparently there were packages; The H&M
of course, had baggage cars at one point.
>
> As far as the H&M is concerned. It was a railroad and under the ICC,
it
> connected with all but the CNJ terminals on the Jersey side (OK, the
West
> Shore as well was missed) and RRs in Newark. Built before the
subways (even
> before the Boston one?) it was nothing but a RR. And it stopped a
block from
> Penn Station (though it was there first)...
>
The H&M is also listed in the 1910 guide. But if one wishes to confirm
how tickets were sold, the most easily accessible would be the ICC
reports found in any decent law or university library. You might also
consult especially the discontinuance dockets on the PRR Ferry and the
abandonment of servie to Exchange Place.

The West Shore also connected with the H&M in limited fashion, as a
few WS trains continued to Exchange Place (see the 1910 guide) until
the great cutbacks there at the time of the Penn Station opening.
Those trains stopped at the NYC station in Hoboken -- located at
Paterson Plank Road.

One other legacy: One I worked for the LIRR, all interline tickets
were sold via subway/ferry -- NOT via Penn Station. Penn Station (and
Hell Gate) required supplementals -- which you avid ticket collectors
all have in your collections, I'm sure. On the LIRR, we sold both PRR
and Hell Gate Supps individually, as ten trips, and monthlies. A
person purchasing, say, a Huntington-Linden monthly commutation ticket
would find it was only good to Brooklyn or LI City -- finding one's
way to Jersey was by then the passenger's responsibility. A subway
ride and a hike to the ferry  for CNJ, DL&W or Erie points was simple
and straightforward -- good via ferry. I'm not clear on Hudson
Terminal, because the PA had taken over by then. But I'm told that
such tickets were good for entrance in an arrangement in effect
between the time of the end of ferry service and the PA takeover.

When both the PRR and LIRR had ferry service, these through tickets
were good via the Els/Ferries.  There was some sort of special
arrangement with the IRT on tickets to Brooklyn after the Annex ferry
(and short lived Jersey-City-Flatbush Avenue train) was discontinued
as well. One could use the LIRR ticket to enter the El at 34th St and
the river.

Penn Station connections required the extra ticket; GCT connection did
not require the Hell Gate Supplemental, of course.

You might also find the Erie/NYS&W interesting; A Jersey City 46-ride
ticket was less than the Manhattan 46-ride, but to purchase one, a
passenger had to sign an affidavitt at the ticket office assuring the
railroad that at no time during the month did they plan to continue
their journey to Manhattan -- whether via the Ferry (no fare controls
in the Pavonia Terminal) or via the Tubes (whichj would still required
a separate fare).

> Also it seems that Jim actually was witness to signs and stuff
relating to
> this at 9th Street. I don't doubt this was true, nor that it lasted
until
> PATH took over.
>
> Anyone have any RR guides and if so were any of these three (The two
El RRs
> and the H&M) listed in it? Maybe there is mention there. (Or old
NY&N
> timetables? Or any RR that terminated on the other side of Hudson
and might
> see an advantage in promoting that they could also deliver
passengers,
> through connections, to close to Penn Station, so as to compete with
PRR?)
> It has ring of truth to it.

The H&M "The Hudson Rapid Tubes" was always in the guide until the PA
took over, and noted "interline arrangements." It was always a
full-blown, interline tarriff railroad until then -- which still
haunts it operationally today.


Quiz for ticket mavens:

Name the off-(H&M) line station to which all Newark tickets were
valid -- although trying to exercize that right might result in an
altercation with a conductor/collector.

Finally -- let me point out that some fans collect tickets and have
albums full of them, like stamp collectors. I have met very few who
are interested in the vast amunts of passenger tariff material behind
the creation of those tickets, which is a shame:

It is not  the pretty pasteboards, but the tariffs themselves -- that
represent the historian's interest.

Cheers,
Jim

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