Re: (rshsdepot) Jim Guthrie's comments

[Seth Bramson <sbramson_@_bellsouth.net>]

rshsdepot
Ladies (I hope there are some on this list) and Gentlemen:
This discussion is wonderful as was the previous one several months ago re the
N. Y. City depots.  Let me answer one or two question and give thought for more:

1)  NO, NO elevated or subway RPO service.  There was, if I remember correctly
(and we can check with Dr. Frank Scheer in Alexandria, VA on this) a limited
amount of closed pouch service on the early els but NEVER RPO service.  However,
there was streetcar RPO service in New York:  3rd Avenue RPO (cable car in
Manhattan) and about five Brooklyn RPO routes, the two largest (and therefore
the largest number of strikes that turn up) were the Brooklyn Circuit RPO and
the Brooklyn South Shore RPO, but again, several more that are the "rare" ones.

Turning to the idea that through and interline tickets (which implies a
passenger at an el station in NY City could go up to a ticket booth clerk and
purchase a through ticket for Fresno, CA) were sold in elevated (subway?) ticket
booths.  Think about it:  it is simply not logical.  However, it is possible
that interline tickets between two elevated railway companys  were sold.
Indeed, that would qualify for "interline," though somewhat limited interlining,
so that if you boarded a train on the Ninth Ave el and wanted to go to a
destination on the Second Ave. el, you might, if there were two different
ownerships, buy an "interline" ticket.

A step further, though:  The July, 1891, NYC&HR RR Harlem Division passenger
timetable bears the legend "Rapid Transit Route" underlined and in quotes above
the railroad name, in small letters. On a back panel of this timetable, the
following:  "Splendid Homes....Splendid Rapid Transit Facilities.  (Read this
carefully, now!)  With the completion of the extensive improvements now in
progress, the Harlem Railroad, for a distance of seven miles north of the Harlem
River, will possess four tracks, two of which will be devoted exclusively to
rapid transit trains, enabling suburban residents to reach their places of
business within from 15 to 45 minutes of the time of leaving home."

I am wondering if this is not what some of you were thinking of.  The railroad
was obviously competing with the newly opening rapid transit lines and was
referring to its suburban lines as same.

Now, in regard to the issue of interline tickets.  From the NYC&HR System
Passenger TT of 12-20-84:  "New York Ticket Offices:  (four on Broadway), 3 Park
Place; 5 Bowling Green; 106 W. 125th St. and Grand Central Depot."  Three are
listed for Brooklyn, on Fulton St., Washington St., and 79 4th St., E. D.
However, "Seats in Drawing Room Cars and Berths in Sleeping Cars can be secured
at any of the New York City Offices, and at 333 Washington St., Brooklyn"  NOTE
that it DOES NOT say "Or at any rapid transit station."  It would simply not be
possible to stock rapid transit stations with through ticket stock including
sleeping car forms, and I must respectfully disagree that rapid transit stations
carried anything but interline tickets for use on the els.

One more item:  as some of you know, I have a great affinity for pre 1900
timetables.  I am blessed with a major collection of same, including the
following, which may give at least some assistance to our quest for info on
location of early NY City freight and passenger stations.  This is New York &
Harlem Rail Road passenger timetable "Sunday
Arrangement" "On and after Sunday, December 9, 1849, the Cars will leave City
Hall, N. Y. for Harlem and Morrisania/New Village and Fordham/Croton Falls and
all intermediate Stations above Harlem"  Times are given for each but NO
intermediate stations.  HOWEVER, do note the following:   "The trains....will
land and receive passengers at 27th, 42nd, 51st, 61st, 79th, 86th, 109th, 115th,
125th and 132nd Streets."

Granted, no stations are shown between City Hall and 27th, but, indeed, through
this timetable you have incontrovertible written proof that at least the NY &
Harlem went all the way south to City Hall.  Wish I could provide more
documented info, but, at the moment, this appears to be "it."

"Paul S. Luchter" wrote:

> rshsdepot
> #1) The NYC&N (NY&N) linked with the NY&NE to Boston I think (too lazy right
> now to look it up)
>
> 2nd- I think what was meant by interline tickets on the Railroads mentioned
> is before they were part of a larger entity (I am not sure exactly when the
> Els became part of IRT, though I think by 1900 the NY El RR and the
> Metropolitan El RR were already merged)...
>
> What I am trying to babble out is that the NY Elevated RR and the
> Metropolitan Elevated RR thought of themselves as true RRs, they even had
> steam engines for a few decades. I think this is one reason sometimes you
> see them have plans and maps to expand to NJ and upstate....obviously they
> were not interstate, but I have no problems seeing them selling interline
> tickets at all, since at first they did use tickets, why not- they had
> connections with the NY and Hudson at that old station near 30th Street,
> with the NY and Northern at 155th, at Grand Central via a spur on 42nd St.
> (only the NY&Northern was on same platforms/tracks). They also had stations
> near virtually every RR's ticket office (such as Erie and B&O) around
> Manhattan, with exceptions such as the W 23rd St. Ferries...At first they
> even carried freight. (At least I recall reading that), and didn't someone
> even mention RPO early on?
>

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