Re: (rshsdepot) The "Great GM Bus Conspiracy"--balderdash......

["Paul Luchter" <luckyshow_@_mindspring.com>]

ah, let's see: let me babble for a moment

Steam power, an external combustion engine is the most efficient engine,
there is ash, by the time of dieselization the D&H, the mountain roads to
the northwest Pacific Coast, were maybe the height of mechanical engineering
in the 20th century....anyway it wasn't a conspiracy, such as the N&W kept
steam for far longer than others, until the scales of economy finally were
tipped to where bucking the trend is just impossible...

anyway it is hardly an urban legend what happened to the Keyes System, to
the big red cars in LA, to many transit systems around the country,
especially in New York (though maybe not in Brooklyn where Laguardia and
Moses may have been more important to the change to B-U-S)...the rubber
(tire) companies, and GM for two, but there were others....this is hardly a
myth...virtually all streetcar companies that "motorized" `went under...

I don't need to cite the books, or the lawsuits, it was just as pernicious
as what railroads did sometimes in 1950's to drop passenger service...you
can call it a conspiracy, but that isn't necessary, GM and the others
controlled companies that bought the streetcar  companies, the suburban
traction systems and would systematically abandon them, motorize them, scrap
them...there was also typical industry PR which was heavy and affected
communities which in road building would make traction pay to remove and
then replace the rails, wires, reroute....whatever..

So, anyway I disagree with everybody pooh-poohing steam power, it is mighty,
if modernized an internal combustion engine would be far more efficient in
energy use, control the ash, superheat and all that, and well, Diesel
smells..

and that GM and Goodyear and others did kill traction in the US, helped to
kill, and in many instances directly did...

Some of these cases went to the Supreme Court, it is hardly urban myth

Paul
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Bramson" <sbramson_@_bellsouth.net>
To: <rshsdepot_@_lists.railfan.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: (rshsdepot) The "Great GM Bus Conspiracy"--balderdash......


> Ahhh, Alexander, my friend, you may have misunderstood what I wrote or
> taken it out of context.
> First, you must understand that I am a capitalist and fiscal
> conservative (although a liberal in other areas) and I have no beef with
> dieselization, believing that, indeed, there was no choice and if EMD
> was there at the right time with the right machinery, that was fine.  I
> do not think or believe that there was a "conspiracy" to end steam.
>  Anybody with half a brain can see that the economics of diesel make it
> a far better motive power choice, nostalgia aside.
>
> MORE below.
>
> Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
>
> >Seth Bramson said:
> >
> >>"Third, unlike, I feel and believe, the slime who destroyed the NYC and
> >>PRR, PC and CONFAIL, the Vans were great builders and had the Depression
> >>not come along MIGHT have pulled off their dream of  a trans-continental
> >>RR.  Their belief in rail rapid transit and their future plans for it,
> >>might also have gone far and well in staving off the Borg of the
> >>highways, General Motors, which, of course, raped, robbed, looted,
> >>pillaged and burned every rail transit system that they possibly could
> >>in order to besmirch our cities and towns with their pollution belching
> >>and inferior road monsters.  But that's another story for another list
> >>at another time.  ( : > ))."
> >>
> >I just spent much of yesterday (at someone else's request) gunning down a
> >bunch of what I would loosely term "anti-capitalism" websites that wave
the alleged "GM Conspiracy" as "proof" of the evils of Big Business.  One
site even brought up the old chestnut that GM "blackmailed" the railroads
into buying diesels--an accusation based on horribly flimsy, very selective,
and slanted analysis that I termed a "witch hunt".
> >
>  >>>While your thoughts and comments above are very valid, I am not
> quite sure exactly how you have taken my comments (which, of course, are
> based on fact, truth, and the Supreme Court decision fining GMC for
> conspiracy) regarding electric rail transit and metamorphosed it into a
>  discussion on railroad conversion from steam to diesel.  One has
> nothing to do with the other, and I never made any such comment or
> accusation regarding railroad dieselization as you have suggested above.
>  In fact, I specifically noted "rail transit system" and "inferior road
> monsters," neither of which sounds locomotive-oriented to me!
>
> I do, however, based strictly on FACTS (Jesse Haugh and PE; those SOB's
> who went to jail for destroying TCRT's rail network and had been paid
> off by GM; HUNDREDS of other examples of conversion of electric rail to
> bus when it shouldn'thave been done, which is not to say that of course
> there should have been some, but nowhere near what was done, as the
> pollution and inferiority of rubber tired vehicles is proving in city
> after city) unquestionably stand by my comments on GM relating to the
> destruction of America's street and electric railways.  (We have had
> this discussion on several other lists, incidentally, and people from
> Don Leistikow to Lou Shapiro to Lew Rugani and many others have backed
> up these comments with PURE facts including the citation of the Supreme
> Court decision wherein GM was found guilty of conspiracy and fined (a
> paltry amount, considering the damage they had done) for their illegal
> activities.
>
> That being said, I again ask you to note that you have brought up an
> issue that I never mentioned, and while it was not part of what I was
> discussing I do agree with you, as I have stated above, on the fact that
> the switch to diesels was necessary for the railroads and I have never
> heard of, much less accused, GM of doing anything illegal or unethical
> regarding the selling of diesel locomotives to the railroads, which was
> NOT the situation when it came to selling their busses to city after
> city, doing so after either buying up the local transit system operator
> or paying off those in power in order to get them to order the
> conversion from electric traction to bus.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =================================
> The Railroad Station Historical Society maintains a database of existing
> railroad structures at: http://www.rrshs.org
>

=================================
The Railroad Station Historical Society maintains a database of existing
railroad structures at: http://www.rrshs.org

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