Re: (rshsdepot) OT: Correction and my source.

["Jim Guthrie" <jguthrie_@_pipeline.com>]

From: "Paul S. Luchter" <luckyshow_@_mindspring.com>
>
> I have realized the source for my LIRR/BRT deal.
>
> The Brooklyn Elevated by Greller & Watson.
>
> On page 5 under the Prospect Park & Coney Island RR  it reads: "In 1899,
> the BRT and the Long Island Railroad reached an agreement by which the
> BRT would develop lines in Brooklyn only, with the exception of the Long
> Island main line and Atlantic Avenue while the Long Island would develop
> lines in Queens without competition from the BRT."

Even if it is exactly as Greller and Watson indicate, it seems pretty
one-sided in favor of the LIRR, does it not? It gets them out of a
money-losing situation in Brooklyn, in exchange for the BRT not building
rail lines into the farmland of Queens. But Even taking that at face value,
it would seem that both the LIRR and BRT acted otherwise.

In 1901, the city took bids on the first subway route to Brooklyn, pointed
directly at the LIRR's terminal at Flatbush Avenue. The BRT bid on the line,
but the IRT won the contract to connect the subway abuilding in Manhattan to
the LIRR. The LIRR responded with its own plans for a new terminal, with a
tunnel leading up to it at the same level as the IRT plans, complete with
trackbeds for a direct connection. As I've mentioned before, the
construction included bellmouths for a branch heading south to the Brighton
line at Franklin Avenue. All in all -- not the response of a "partner"
looking to give up on Brooklyn.

The virtual connection with the IRT -- I remember that the track beds were
covered with wooden planking well into the 1970s (I think that concrete was
finally poured after the fire in the Grand Central Shuttle station) -- was
complete in 1905, and then the LIRR embarks on spending millions on
improving the Manhattan Beach branch -- grade crossing eliminations from
Manhattan Beach Junction, a new terminal building and then -- four tracking
all the way to Fresh Pond with new concrete-platform local stations. Even
today one sees that high-level platform between the trackbeds of the
one-time tracks 3&4 at East New York -- a substantial investment/improvement
for a company supposedly agreeing to no longer serve Brooklyn. One can also
see evidence of fairly substantial investment in stations such as Myrtle
Avenue and Cypress Avenue, which also had island platforms like East New
York -- ideal for eventual Rapid transit conversion.

It also bid into what would later become the dual contracts (along with the
New York Central and Hudson and Manhattan) in 1910. But the subway plans
involved getting the bid-winners off the hook on capital construction costs,
which might have been attractive under the circumstance -- especially since
it would give them the opportunity to steer route development to complement
their existing operations, rather than compete.

Further, consider that the BRT was not involved in that bidding process
until the very last minute. With the city's plans for the Triborough system
and the rest, obviously the LIRR would again be up to its eyeballs in
Brooklyn -- sans its own capital investment.

One might make the case that the LIRR had failed repeatedly to implement
such an "agreement" -- but that the BRT in declining to bid into the
Triborough Plan until the last minute was upholding its own side of the
bargain.

In other words -- I remain unconvinced that there's any evidence that would
support the notion that the agreement that Greller and Watson seem to think
of import had any influence at all on relations between the BRT and LIRR and
development of local services within Brooklyn and Queens.

I am most interested in any direct actions that might evidence
implementation of such divvying up of territory, but I certainly can't find
any.

Finally -- a footnote to all this: The location of the LIRR 1909 Manhattan
Beach Terminal was eventually sold to Fred Trump -- and the first buildings
of what became today's Trump empire were constructed there. That IS NOT
I repeat IS NOT a historical connection to justify to your significant other
that a visit to one of Mr. Trump's casinos constitutes historical station
"research."

Cheers,
Jim Guthrie




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