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Re: (erielack) Route of the "Cleveland Lake Cities"
When those train-off notices went up, most trains emptied out! It was like the train was gone already! People were not interested in hearings by the ICC to "save" a train. What a joke! The talk on the train was that the ICC would protect the public.They wouldn't take the train off. A way would be found. I found out about this first hand by attending the hearing at the Federal Building in Chicago for the "Chicago Lake Cities". There were people there from the bus companies and, of all things, the Trucking Lobby? I left the hearing disappointed and disillusioned. It was also said at the hearing that the B&O had a train from Youngstown to Chicago and, therefore, that the EL train was not needed. Of course, at the B&O hearing I believe they said the same thing in reverse. Both the B&O and Erie trains were allowed to be dropped by the Interstate Commerce "Permission". They used to run out west of Youngstown at about the same time sometimes, and you could see inside the B&O coaches from the EL train and wave to the B&O passengers. In Chicago there were only three public witnesses for the train, including me, in addition, of course, to the EL lawyers which to me it seemed were very good friends with the judge. There were also people from cites and unions there. I was told later after the hearing by one of these people that the ICC judge had been riding around with the EL officials on their business cars from hearing to hearing. (I think business cars were charged off to the dining car department--more losses, I guess?)
Most people would not take time off work to attend, or come at their own expense to Chicago to save a train during business hours. Gas was, I guess, 30 cents a gallon; who needed a train? On the other hand, many felt that the ICC would save the train, since it's very popular. EL was pretty well liked, except for the high fares and a few other things (which helped kill the business). Trains were clean, and for the most part on time. This was unlike other major eastern carriers, on which you couldn't see through the windows any more from the dirt or broken windows. These other companies just taped up the windows if they were broke. I NEVER heard a bad thing about the EL staff from the public. The public did talk negatively about the management, mostly regarding the continuing cuts of service. The conductors talked about each other. Prices for food in the diner were still very reasonable. The notion that the ICC would save the train was the same dining car talk I heard on the very popular "Phoebe Snow," except in the case of #28 and #29, there were very few passengers left to talk about it. (There were rumors in Washington that something like RailPAX might take over the passenger service. The Erie did not want to be a part of this and wanted out altogether.)
Some of the public started to wake up and call the ICC the "Interstate Commerce PERMISSION." But I did see a difference as the EL raised the fares. They had already dropped the popular credit cards. When they did have a credit card, it was the "Rail Travel Credit" card, which was FREE (no interest or service charges) to the card holders! Member railroads had to pay in to maintain the office for it in Chicago Union Station (not smart) at a time when other businesses were going "Master Charge." I still have my RTC card and carry it. By the way, if you charged anything with EL, you would get the bill from EL about 6 months later! If I were running a struggling business, I would want the money yesterday, not wait that long to even send a bill!
When I rode 28 and 29 the first time, it was 12 cars of heavyweight coaches. Towards the end, the 3 or 5 lightweight coaches end doors were rusted in place. They never pulled up the steps or closed the end doors. They just ran with them open.
Just think of the costs of Cleveland Union Terminal ticket office and track space allocated to "one" train #28 and #29! There are those high terminal costs for commuter trains I have talked about before on this list. Of course, they don't go away. Terminal Tower is still there ( I see it sometimes at night if I'm awake in my sleeper on the "Lake Shore Limited"); but today the space must be rented out for other uses. I would guess that the track space is now parking, of course. I think it's called Tower City or something like that; but it will always be Terminal Tower to me. For us EL guys, this is much like Ground Zero, shown as Mile Post Zero in the system public timetables, was Hudson Terminal, which can still be seen in the tile walls of the subways of NY, if you know where to look. I remember that when I brought my ticket at Cleveland Union Terminal, the massive ticket office and waiting room were all still there for just one train. -Lance
- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Mayer <jmayer_@_insight.rr.com>
To: erielack_@_lists.railfan.net
Sent: Sat, Dec 11, 2010 12:39 pm
Subject: Re: (erielack) Route of the "Cleveland Lake Cities"
OTE: This message had contained at least one image attachment.
o view or download the image(s), click on or cut and paste the
ollowing URL into your web browser:
ttp://lists.railfan.net/listthumb.cgi?erielack-12-11-10
EL_Tickets_Niles-Cleve_1976_001.jpg (image/jpeg, 2550x3509 743626 bytes, BF:
2.03 ppb)
iles_Train_Board_JMayer.jpg (image/jpeg, 3000x2100 3491244 bytes, BF: 1.80 ppb)
iles_train_off_notice_JMayer.jpg (image/jpeg, 1111x1516 1121361 bytes, BF: 1.50
pb)
Here are some items that might be of interest, in light of Lance's post.
wo tickets from a ride Niles to Cleveland in April 1976. I rode for $4.80,
hile my 9 year old sister rode for $2.40. I scanned them on black so you
ould see the punch marks. The trip was pretty much done on a whim, with my
ad picking us up at CUT. So I didn't have a camera on the trip. Really
ished I had. I remember seeing the regulars with their on-going card game
rubber band the cards in your hand and throw them in the briefcase when you
rrive in Cleveland, and pick it back up on the way home) and the conductor
ppearing to take a quick nap with the open case of tickets and punches on
he opposite seat. But he didn't miss a station.
Also, the train-off notice that somehow found it's way from the Niles
tation door to my collection. Lastly, the train board that was on the
iles station pretty much right to the end, photographed in 1976. Some
ucky person saved it before the station was demolished. Wish it had been
e. Enjoy.
Joe Mayer
LHS 702
> From Archives_@_Railfan.net
Message-ID: <8CD671F3666EA4D-700-B30F_@_webmail-m020.sysops.aol.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2010 02:50:28 -0500
From: intercityrailpal_@_netscape.net
Subject: (erielack) Route of the "Cleveland Lake Cities"
Could someone give me a update on what's going on with the Cleveland line
of the Erie today. Is it still run by Conrail or is it CSX? When do they
run and why?
What's happening at Geauga Lake, Ohio? How were the mileposts numbered?
From the mainline or from downtown Cleveland, Ohio.
I did ride the line twice. The first time in the Erie heavyweight coach
that's at Utica, NY. I changed trains at Youngstown and went to Hoboken
and NY. The second time was towards the end of #28's service. That was in
a ex DL&W Phoebe Snow coach. Lackawanna Lance
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