Lots of stuff to reply to here - - ----- Original Message ----- From: "EL Mail List Digest" <erielack-owner_@_lists.elhts.org> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 5:33 AM Subject: EL Mail List Digest V3 #2305 > > Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 04:45:04 -0800 (PST) > From: ERIE LACKAWANNA <erie_lackawanna_@_yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: (erielack) EL GP38-2's > > There allegedly were 20 each of the GP38-2's and U23B's but none ever > painted and lettered EL. They may have ended in the CR Roster. > > CR also received from PC five dual control GP38's 7935-7939 just before > first GP38-2. > > On a similar Pre-Merger, Post Merger matter. SLSF (Frisco) before taken > over by BN in the 80's purchased some GP50's in Red-White-Red SLSF scheme > and lettered so but did not carry SLSF Number 700 as proposed but > delivered with a "patch" over the number with small red letters "BN and > Number 3100" below. Unlike proposed EL units, at least the SLSF GP50's > were 99% Frisco paint and lettering before repainted BN Cascade Green and > Black. > > Its not known if new EL units would have been the old GYM. EL may have > settles then for less expensive all Grey or maroon body as LV did. > Remember LV C420's were Grey-Yellow-Grey similar to L&N and C628's were > Black-White-Black. LV also owned Ex-Monon C628's. > > Jerome So much wrong here it's not funny. As has already been stated, EL's EMD order was cancelled in the paperwork stage and the GE order had three or four units beginning construction in Erie when cancelled; L&N was the next order in line and the partially constructed units went there. I was on CR 7938 in Geneva NY in 1992. Not dual-control, at least not then. If a new unit shows up in a predecessor paint scheme, it was most likely completed and ready for delivery when the merger became final. They build them as-ordered until told otherwise. I can't remember the details on the BN-Frisco deal and it's wildly off-topic, so moving on - EL painted/repainted stuff in G-M-Y right up to the end of March 1976, there's at least one ex-DL&W caboose with a paint date of 3-26 or so on it. There is abseloutely no question in my mind that both the U23Bs and GP38-2s had they been delivered would have been in full G-M-Y. On LV-Monon C628s: Monon kept the mars lights and installed them on the replacement C420s. In this case, LV simply bought a bargain - the units were too rough on Monon track due to design characteristics of the Alco Tri-Mount trucks, so after about three years they were traded for smaller C420s. Alco rebuilt the units with dynamic brakes. Monon was also responsible for just about a complete redesign of the pistons in these units due to premature failures. Of course, the LV would find out you get what you paid for, but that's a whole other story. I also wouldn't question that the EL orders would have been straight up out of the box - GE's on AAR trucks (possible the RS2-3's could have been traded for them and those trucks re-used, but only if they had roller bearings); EMD's on the standard Blomberg. Even though LV traded some older F's on their GP38-2 order, those all came with new trucks. The EL units would have had dynamic brakes, as well, but likely no other options. The units were not to be USRA financed - if they were to be, they would have shown up and been used. Conrail had such a power shortage when finally operating that they pulled RS2's EL had in storage for years and ran them until they blew up; they ran sets of EL F-units, got Reading C630s out of storage and ran them, and leased units from all over the place. I don't see the planners turning down more new units. Plus, when the orders were made I suspect EL was still solvent (I'd have to get out books and review dates to be sure of that, memory is fuzzy on the details here) - certainly even if this was done post-Agnes, the decision on where the EL estate would go was done very late - that is probably why the orders were cancelled. The USRA did not come into the matter until the EL was to be included in Conrail, not Chessie. While the LV needed new road power, the EL had plenty to keep going with. - ----------------------------- > >>From: "Tim Stuy" <njmidland_@_verizon.net> >>Reply-To: "EL Mail List" <erielack_@_lists.elhts.org> >>To: "EL Mail List" <erielack_@_lists.elhts.org> >>Subject: Re: (erielack) Erie Controlled NYS&W >>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 06:38:36 -0500 >> >>Just to be really technical, the Erie owned about 98% of the NYS&W's >>stock. >>There were a few holdouts from the J.P. Morgan takeout in 1898. All of >>these stockholders (along with the Erie) had their equity wiped out in the >>NYS&W 1937 bankruptcy. Essentially the bondholders of the NYS&W became >>the >>new stockholders in the 1954 reorganization. >> >>These "holdouts" are not as uncommon as you think. Until bought out a few >>months ago, there was about 4% of the New York & Harlem owned by the >>public. To this day I personally own stock in the Dayton & Michigan >>Railroad (CSX owns most of it) and the Mobile & Birmingham (NS owns most >>of >>it - in fact they told me there are only 26 of us "holdouts" left!) >> >>Tim >> I understand you may also still be able to purchase stock in the Pittsburg & West Virgina Railway, which exists only to lease the property - I am not sure if they lease to NS who subleases to W&LE, or directly to W&LE, or if the compnay has since been folded. Even though the PRR/PC controlled over 90% of the Lehigh Valley it was still possible to buy shares of LV in the 1970s - for as little as a quarter a share. There was a short story in Trains Magazine a couple months back that told how Bob Yanosey's investment on a whim turned into the startup funds for Morning Sun Books when Penn Central bought up the outstanding shares in 1982. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a great many more obscure RR companies that still exist on paper. The Owasco River RR, which was such an obscure line I didn't know about it and I've been where it ran (Auburn NY) many many times, still exists as a unit of the former Penn Central, primarily involved in selling former RR real estate that did not go to Conrail. - ---------------------------------------------------------- > > On 2/27/07, Tupaczewski, Paul R (Paul) <paultup_@_alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: >> >> >> Interestingly, someone on this list (Bob Bahrs, perhaps?) spoke with >> former EL CMO Dave Huggins who said there was going to be a program to >> overhaul a few F-units as well (!!!) but the coming of CR put a stop to >> that. It obviously put a stop to the RS3m rebuilding program, too, but >> if that would have continued (as well as the EL), the road's local power >> needs would have been satisfied for at least another decade. >> >> - Paul This is interesting. No doubt they would have been rebuilt in-kind, Milwaukee did this late with a handful of units (many of which are still out there, I think the two that ended up at Steamtown were in that program). - --------------------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:26:53 -0500 > From: "Walter Smith" <wsmith5957_@_hotmail.com> > Subject: RE: (erielack) EL GP38-2's > > Yes, Paul and that was afte Syracuse univ. got done taking their 'loot' > and > the nuns from (Marymount??) college took "a few truckloads". > > Walt Smith > > >>From: "Tupaczewski, Paul R (Paul)" <paultup_@_alcatel-lucent.com> >>Reply-To: "EL Mail List" <erielack_@_lists.elhts.org> >>To: "EL Mail List" <erielack_@_lists.elhts.org> >>Subject: RE: (erielack) EL GP38-2's >>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:20:36 -0600 >> >> > I'm assuming your post is a good humored one. EL had a very >> > notorious record of abandoning and just plain throwing away >> > records in the trash. It's pretty fair to say that for each >> > item Walt liberated, or saved from destruction. Hundreds or >> > thousands were not. It's unbelievable what was trashed just >> > out of the Scranton Station building. >> >> >>Hoboken, too! Though a lot of the "junk" there lasted into NJT years, >>when they started to clear out the "trash" - fortunately, a lister >>friend of mine looked through said "trash" and found two great folders >>of information on the U34CH and Pullman-Standard car purchases, >>including competing bids and loco test results. I promised him that one >>day I'd turn this into a book - and I'm still planning on it. :) >> >>Sadly, the rest of the Hoboken stuff hit the dumpster as well. :( >> >> - Paul >>> I understood there was still stuff in the Hornell station when it last changed hands to become a Museum or whatever - and that too all hit the dumpster. Penn Central trashed a lot of stuff and in a couple cases had people soak the dumpsters with fire hoses to keep people from taking stuff. Must have been a nice bill given you usually pay for those by what they weigh. Even with that I have a bunch of New Haven stuff I got from a friend who still has more of it (I think it came from a Selkirk dumpster in the late 70s). The Lehigh Valley station in Geneva was loaded with paperwork upstairs when the current owner bought it about 1980 - all went into the dumpster because it was a potential fire hazard. Kids had scattered it all over the floors and things by then, it was a mess. (as a side note, the basement turned out to be full of live bullets that had collapsed through the floor of the waiting room!). Even so, I have a bunch of LV stuff from Rochester and other places from the teens through the 1960s - and I got it from someone in Virginia. As I read through, you can see where there were sometimes 6 copies of the same documents sent to various officials on the railroad. I also have some LV paperwork I picked up from a pile in the old LV yard office in Ithaca - in 1995(!). It's also amazing how much paperwork is involved in say, just leasing a utility company a couple hundred square feet of space to store some pipe or utility poles on for a month or two. I have to think it would be impossible to keep everything, but I'd love to be able to go back and clean every track and signal blueprint out of one of those dumpsters. I could probably just sell those for a few years and retire! To swing this back to EL topics, someone saved the clipboards with the various bulletin orders from the EL Syracuse and Utica branches - I bought them here at the flea market a few years ago. Every bulletin from 1960 to around 1972 if I remember right. At this point, documents like those are so spread around from being pilfered at various times, that if anyone has a good complete set of railroad archives, you really need to put any personal issues aside and make sure that it goes someplace where it will remain, complete, and be cared for, even if that's in a non-rail related site. Bill K. The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List Sponsored by the ELH&TS http://www.elhts.org To Unsubscribe: http://lists.elhts.org/erielackunsub.html ------------------------------
This HTML page is © 2000-2008 Blue Moon Online System and The Railfan Network
This page and the data contained therein may not be reproduced
for any form of commercial use without the explicit permission
of J. Henry Priebe Jr. or his duly authorized agent.