Re: (erielack) The F5

[Blue Moon Network Administrator <root_@_net.bluemoon.net>]

On Thu, 30 May 2002, Kevin DeGroff wrote:

> 
> Various pieces of EL "railfan literature" have indicated that the Erie and 
> EL owned the F5 model, an "unofficial" hybrid EMD model that came out during
> the transition between F3 and F7.  The date these "F5" hybrids were produced 
> are between August 1948 and February 1949.  A total of 619 were built in both
> A-unit and B-unit configurations.

EMD supposedly used the F5 designation internally, but never made it official.

> EMD technically called these units Phase IV F3s, but they differed from 
> the traditional F3 by having D27 traction motors (upgraded from D17) and 
> F7-style carbody features, namely Farr grilles and the large, angled nose
> numberboards (as opposed to the FT and F3 style streamlined, side-mounted 
> numberboards and "chicken wire" grilles), and various electrical transition 
> schemes, which EMD changed (improved) 2 times between Sept 22 1948 and
> Nov 1, 1950.

I have never heard it said that EMD used any "Phase" designation with F units.
In the many discussions of phases it has always been said that this was purely
an enthusiasts' creation to differentiate production.

> The article also mentions that Pennsy had a habit of taking their F3s
> and upgrading the wiring, traction motors, blower ducts, fuel rack
> settings, and classing them as F7s.  Externally, they looked like F3s,
> with chicken wire and small numberboards.

They were also one of the only roads to specify the small FT style
numberboards on early F7's. They also preferred passanger pilots on F units.

> No Erie, DL&W, NYO&W or EL power is listed as meeting Larry's criteria. 
> The way Larry describes it, the F5 should look exactly like the F7 from 
> the outside (Farr Grilles and big numberboards), and would have upgraded 
> transitional Phase IV F3 gear internally.  Its odd that many of the pics 
> of so-called EL F5s have a mish-mash of chicken wire (F3) grilles with 
> the big F7-style number boards, or vice-versa.  

Large numberboards were a relatively early option in F3 production and I 
believe became standard equipment midway through F3 production.

"Phases" aren't a cut and dried thing either. Different folks apply different
attributes to different phases, but no matter whose system was used there were
exceptions to the rules and no "Phase" designation is at all official.

> Are we positive that the F7 numberboards on the chicken wire EL units 
> were not just an option or pre-production test installed on the stock 
> F3?  Or that the Farr grilles on units with FT style numberboards are not 
> replacements? Were these EL F5s actually F3s with a few post-delivery 
> Hornell mods, making them home-made "F5s", and hence be outside of any 
> GM literature?

Numberboards starting with early F3 production were a customer preference
item. Note that the 1947 Lionel F3 model (which was sanctioned by GM and NYC
hence the GM markings at the rear of the model) has the large numberboards.

CB&Q also had large numberboards on early chgiken wire F3's. I'm not sure if
any three porthole F3A's had large numberboards and I don't have my reference
material here, but I don't think so.

Numberboards are not really indicative of any "phase" of F3's. While Pennsy
had "F5's" I do not believe that any of them had large numberboards. To the
best of my knowledge PRR didn't change to large numberboards until later F7
production.

> What EL F-units were built in the 7 month timeframe between 8-48 and 
> 2-49?   My data lacks month descriptions.  Erie or DL&W origin?

Erie 709 ABCD and 710 ABCD are the only two I know of and they were built in
Feb of 49. EL 7091 to 4 and 7101 to 4.

> What hard sources from company records identify them as F5s, or is this
> persistant classification strictly an ignorant railfan thing, where we
> see this mixture of F3 and F7 features and incorrectly call it an F5???

I have only heard that EMD internally referred to them as F5's, from several
sources, but never seen any paperwork.

The phase thing is what railfans made up.

> Would there be any corroberative EMD documentation in the EL records 
> in Akron? Or are these distinctions made using EL documentation only?

I wasn't aware that EL called them anything but F3.

Henry

J. Henry Priebe Jr.       Blue Moon President & Network Administrator
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